The politics of here and now

[Dugsie]

We should get down to the real problems says Robert, with some justification.

Of course, theory is related to practice and understanding how society works is an important part of changing it. The connection between green politics and capitalism is crucial. Social democracy, however, from my perspective, is about the politics of connection and engagement. It's about trying to confront the neoliberal hegemony and offer an immediate alternative. Some of us may think that this alternative, support for a welfare state, is constantly undermined by the domination of capital, and, therefore, theory has its place in informing even the most immediate of struggles. I see it as inserting the thin edge of the wedge where we can, and hammering it home as best we can.

At times like this it may seem a hopeless task, but the alternative is a speculative passivity. I also see the present site of this immediate struggle as being the Labour Party, where social democracy confronts neoliberalism directly, within one party. In the recent past they have been strong and we have been weak, but now they are, very obviously, getting much weaker.

[Mike777]

Ah, the dear old Labour party.

Are you suggesting Dugsie, that Labour party policy reverts to the Keynesian,  Corporatism of the early 1970's? It failed then, why would it work now? Particularly as the UK would be the only country in the world following this route.

My guess is that the UK economy would go into a tailspin as capital takes flight to more fertile ground.

[Mike777]

This from Andy Newman at socialist unity blog, who I do not agree with generally, but I agree with this. http://socialistunity.com/

'Sadly, much of the socialist left seem to think that adopting a more left wing policy agenda can overcome these structural problems, without addressing and analysing the changed underlying structures of British society, and the political landscape. Just one more demo, one more successful strike, and the left will make a breakthrough. This attitude doesn’t face up to the scale of the defeat that the left has suffered on the political, ideological and trade unions fronts.'

Anyone going to the Compass conference on Saturday?

[Dugsie]

The position that Andy Newman criticises isn't mine. I'm all for analysis and then using that analysis in here and now politics. Unfortunately, much of the sectarian Left have no political practice to speak of. They are all about in the head politics. There are decisions to make and they may turn out be impossible to get right. As long as the Labour Party exists it will have to be taken account of, in one way or another. If we had STV it would be a different situation.

If I decide tomorrow to join the Green Party, I will have to justify my position. As I've said elsewhere, when you are on the cusp you can easily slip over to the other side. I want a connected kind of politics though, even if I can't get out of the house to practice it. Social democracy, look at the LRC programme, confronts neoliberalism inside the Labour party. Those outside, for whatever reason, are spectators.

The Compass conference may well be very interesting. I can't go to conferences, but I've been to more in my life than should be allowed. It's a pity that John McDonnell decided to withdraw. The Compass Left are in an angry mood.

[Mike777]

A union comrade tried to recruit me to the LRC a few years back, before I joined the Greens. I told her I thought she was wasting her time, the Labour party is finished as a party of the Left.

Can you tell us Dugsie, what the LRC programme is? Or provide a link, so we can examine the proposals. 

[Dugsie]

Have a look around the site. It's not revolutionary, but a decent social democratic programme. There are some things missing, in my view. How would you say that it compares to the Green Party programme ? Not that either of them are likely to be implemented anytime soon !

http://www.l-r-c.org.uk/

[Mike777]

OK mate, plenty to read for me there. I'll have to get back to you on comparisons with the Green party and such.

[Mike777]

Progress report. I've read down to point 50 on Jobs, Investment and Ownership in the 'Full LRC policy document (http://www.l-r-c.org.uk/policy/lrcpolicy/lrcpolicy2005.pdf)

As an interim, I would say that there are some goodish ideas. But, the proposals are vauge. Take this for an example, ' Prevent large corporations from using their muscle to undermine the elected Government's economic strategy.'

How do they plan to do that?

This is a bit unfair in a way. The Labour party (and Green party too) are trying to work inside of the system, but I think that is hopeless.

If I really thought any party could prevent large corps from using their muscle under our present economic conditions, then I would agree with this. I know some of you think that my ideas are pie in the sky, but this is even more fantastic.

Without having read the full document, or even much on the website, I get the impression that it is a heart felt desire for progressive government. It's a bit dated, centralising and bureaucratic sounding. In many ways it reflects my thinking of ten years ago. (I think this was written in 2005).

Doesn't seem to be ecocentric in anyway.

Which brings me onto the Green party. I am not a policy expert for the Green party, and I should state that any views I publish here, are of a personal nature.

I think the ideas about public services (particularly public transport) are very similar to the Green party positions. The big differences are, I would say, the centralising instincts of LRC, as apposed to the Green party stressing localism and the greens would seem to have a more coherant approach to environmental issues.

One of the main issues for Labour party members is the lack of democracy in their party. I can say that the greens are very democratic, but how will Labour members get these proposals adopted?

[treborc]

Here is one for you to mull over while you talk and scheme about saving the world. A license has been given to TATA the India mining giant and steel making company which now owns all the steel plants in the UK, to open a deep mine . The mine will deliver coal to the steel works and will be used for a coal power station within the area. But another plan is going through for another deep mine and another Coal fired power station in my area.

Port Talbot steel works now brings in all it's coal from China, while the plants sits upon millions of tons of the best quality coking coal.

And of course my home town once had six major deep pits, the last one closed in 1999 and yet had about sixty years of coal left, it will now reopen and a new power station will be opened, we had one before but closed because Oil was so cheap. An audit in the area says we have enough coal to last about 300 years.

What comes around comes around.

[Mike777]

The escalating price of oil has changed the game considerably. Also, thinking on energy security with unstable regimes around the world sitting most stocks of oil and gas.

As for coal, you're right that the UK has hundreds of years of stocks left and so it makes sense to exploit this. The problem with coal is that it is much worse than gas or oil environmentally.

There is talk of 'carbon capture' technology which strips out the CO2 gases and then buries it back underground. But this technology is unproven at the moment. If it was possible to do this, then I would not object to using coal for power generation, but this is a big if. New coal fired power stations should be conditional on having carbon capture facility, sadly this not so today.

The main thing that we should be pushing though, is renewable energy. The UK has vast potential stocks of renewables, but there is a pitiful amount of investment in it.

[treborc]

Yes but people want Jobs and government want to give them jobs so the coal will win.

[Mike777]

There are many more jobs to had in renewables.

[treborc]

Nope I know I worked in it, building the dam things I was what you call a steeple jack we called our self steel monkeys. A Unit of say twenty five wind turbines needs one technician, a power station needs about 100 and coal mine needs about 1000.

Nobody would work building wind turbines in my area they would if it's a power station or a coal mine

[Mike777]

It's not just wind. There are many types of renewable energy and most are pretty labour intensive. The problem is a lack of investment in these technologies.

[Dugsie]

The point is to make a connection. This is where the extra-Labour Party Left are bad. Most people barely know that they exist, never mind what they stand for. It's essentially about profile. Without being widely known, nobody hears what you are saying.

The Green Party is relatively well known, although under FPTP not enough to elect an MP. It also seems to do very badly in working class areas, because it doesn't address issues which are of immediate concern to the voters there. Green issues need to be mixed and related to bread and butter issues.

The Labour Left is a part of a high profile party. Its problem is that it is contained and neutralised within that party. Its ideas may be good or bad, but they have very little by way of mass expression.

Capitalism is constantly promoted by the media and the advertising industry. It is the norm. Those of us who oppose it are abnormal. Perhaps just anormal ?

[Mike777]

There is some truth in what you say about the Green and working class support, but not absolutely so. Take Norwich for example. The first council seat that Norwich Greens won, was not previously their best ward, it was a working class, solid (until then) Labour ward. This was acheived by bloody hard work on behalf of Norwich Greens, banging on doors and talking to people. Labour had largely taken the ward for granted. Now Norwich Greens have 13 councillors and a good shot at unseating Charlie Clarke in Norwich South, at the next GE.

On capitalism, this system is at it's weakest point in my lifetime as a viable economic system, now it the time to challenge all of its assumptions.

[rob9443]

Until we have PR, the Lib Dems and Labour are the only possible forces for change at a parliamentary level.

There is one hell of a fight going on within the Labour Party between the LRC plus Compass and the Blairite wing of the party, which has the nerve to call itself "Progress". Latest soundbite I've come up with is that without a compass you are not likely to make much progress in a productive direction. Bit unworthy but it works at the level of rhetoric, which unfortunately is sometimes needed to puncture their complacecy.

Yes the status quo has failed but the reality is that reform is going to have to come from within the establishment.  You need to pressure the system from without but fundamental changer comes from within, at least in the early stages of a changing paradigm.

We could use all the help we can get from  real progressives everyone in winning this battle.  It will determine whether serious action is taken against the tax havens in the first year of Obama's administration.  Obama will need all the help he can get and the response of the British government will be key since London presides over so many of these nasty little "get out of tax and regulation free" crown dependencies.

The attitude of the British government will also be key in deciding whether any action is taken on global warming. If the terror of methane hydrates leaking into the atmosphere and triggering the point of no return is the issue that you are most focused on Mike - and as a Green it should be - then you have to recognise that the battle between social democracy and neoliberalism within Labour is where the action is.

There will be reform because even a Republican such as Schwarzenegger cannot deny the problem is real. But the stronger the neoliberals and the weaker the social democrats the longer it will take for Big Business to be forced to take meaningful action.

Of course a Green government would be preferable to the kind of social democracy that might be on the cards. But to make the best the enemy of the good is an indulgence the left cannot afford at this point. I used to do it often enough in the past but the time has come for action.

[Mike777]

I appreciate what you are saying rob, but I am not a social democrat. A lifelong (until fairly recently) Labour supporter, I just could not stomach them anymore.

This govt has done next to nothing about climate change, even Arnie as you poimt out has done more. Interestingly, California is where the US Greens are strongest, so this has obviously influenced him. The same would be true here, if greens get more votes, then the other parties need to take note.

But in the end, capitalism will eat itself ecologically, whatever Labour or Tory do or say, or the greens for that matter. Let's prepare for that fight, and leave the corrupt politicians to their squalid little business.

[Dugsie]

It depends on what you mean by a social democrat.

Compass have had a lot more to do with Progress than they have with the LRC. I have challenged them on this many times.

Is this changing now ?

[rob9443]

Not nearly as fast as it should. There's a tendency for them to try to disassociate themselves from radical socialists in the hope that the Progress people might listen to them. There is a cultural immune system at the top of New Labour to anything that smacks of socialism but it's questionable whether being defensive is a useful strategy.