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Author Topic: George Orwell - hero or zero?  (Read 2137 times)
willp
Sr. Member

Posts: 504


« on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 12:36 »

A perspicacious Tory family I know had, among their many books, just one on Spain. Of the 20,000 or so books on Spain in the 1930s, which one did they choose? Orwell's ‘Homage to Catalonia’.
A similarly perspicacious Ministry of Education may change its name but it never changes its policy of putting either ‘Animal Farm’ or ‘1984’ into the minds of every year of schoolchildren. Why?
Because they are supreme examples of the novelist’s art? I don’t think so.
Because they portray revolution as either futile (Animal Farm) or lethal (1984)? Because they therefore dissuade people, especially young people, from the ideas of revolution and socialism? Because they therefore serve the interests of the employing class?
In 1948, Orwell wrote against the trade unions - “a strike is in effect a blow against the community as a whole, including the strikers themselves, and its net effect is inflationary.”

He was not even a consistent anti-imperialist. He wrote that India’s independence would be ‘nonsense,’ and that India could ‘no more be independent than can a cat or a dog’. He wrote that without the Empire, Britain would be merely a cold rock whose inhabitants would be reduced to eating herring – not the best of forecasts! He bought the Conservative Imperialists’ point of view that Britain depended for its economic well being on the Empire. But Britain no more depended on the Empire then than it depends on the European Union now.
As for Orwell’s fabled independence of mind, when in the Empire’s police force, he served the Empire; in Spain in turmoil, he was for ‘the revolution’; in England at peace in the 1930s, he was for peace (but against the anti-fascist alliance that could have saved peace); in England at war he was for England and war; when Labour was in office, he was for Labour; in the Cold War, he was for the Cold War.
In the last year of his life, he wrote to the Information Research Department of the Foreign Office (the IRD was a secret anti-Communist propaganda agency which was linked to MI5 and MI6), offering them ‘a list of journalists and writers and journalists who in my opinion are crypto-communists, fellow-travellers or inclined that way and should not be trusted ... ’
This evidence shows that he was an enlisted agent of the ruling class. The communist charge that he was a police spy was true.
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Free Radical
Sr. Member

Posts: 822


« Reply #1 on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 13:22 »

Orwell was a complex (and very interesting) character. But his ideas are an important challenge to the left even today. He obviously detested Stalinism, with good reason, and Stalinists have been trying to completely rubbish his reputation ever since.
 
I've mentioned here before, but when my old friend (and former communist) Staf Cottman, now sadly not with us, returned from Spain, having gone on the run from the communists and fascists with Orwell, CP members were marching up and down outside his house with swastikas denouncing Staf as a fascist. Although he was always friendly with Trostkyists like Ted Grant, with whom he no longer agreed politically, he had an abiding hatred of Stalinism, which of course one could understand.

Perhaps the reason that Stalinists don't like Orwell is because Homage to Catalonia revealed the utter duplicity of the Communist Party, and of Stalin's foreign policy, in Spain. Orwell points out in an interesting analysis, that the Spanish Communist Party had, in many ways attracted the middle classes, which had changed its character considerably.

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Brigg57
Sr. Member

Posts: 1512


« Reply #2 on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 13:36 »

FR, agreed.

Orwell was a bad-tempered git who was misogynistic and 'named names' to British Inteligence. He named them in good faith; he wasn't a Judas because he never regarded himself as a Soviet sympathiser. But it was and is unforgiveable.

Homage to Catalonia is one of the finest accounts of the Spanish Civil War, its opening padge a thrilling account of Anarchist 'rule' in Barcelona, its growing political sophistication as he realises the full horror of Stalinist atrocity and murder making it a journalistic account of the first order. Journalistic - not a history. Good histories are elsewhere - one of the best by Pierre Broue and Emile Temime - The Revolution and the Civil War in Spain; Chomsky's account of Stalinist destruction of the Revolution is a very good one (one of the essays in American Power and the New Mandarins). I was told that Andres nin, the revolutionary leaderof the POUM was partially skinned alive by the Stalinists before being murdered? Anyway, like all the rest of us on the RP board, he was a 'fascist', wasn't he?

1984 remains one of the most frightening accounts of totalitarian control, and of individual impotence in the face of organised opinion. It's based on his experiences with the BBC, an organisation described by Goebbels as one of the finest propaganda machines in the world.
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Dugsie
Full Member

Posts: 403


« Reply #3 on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 17:29 »

Orwell described himself as coming from the lower-upper-middle class. Wouldn't you be confused ?
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wolfysmith
Sr. Member

Posts: 807


« Reply #4 on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 18:25 »

There is a good account ‘The Shallow Grave a memoir of the Spanish Civil War’ by Walter Gregory if you can get hold of a copy. I cannot remember the details of the book other than I felt as did Jack Jones who wrote the forward that it was ‘a dramatic and human story of a brave man’ and well worth getting hold of a copy.

Orwell’s story 1984 remains one of the most frightening accounts of totalitarian control; Wigan Pier Revisited by Beatrix Campbell printed in 1984 is a brilliant account of the real Thatcherite 1980’s. Orwell was right the BBC in the 1980’s was frightening and not very subtle it’s much more professional at propaganda now than it was back then. As Dugsie points out he was lower-upper-middle class so not surprising he was confused.
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Rabelais
Full Member

Posts: 453


« Reply #5 on: Sun 24 Jan 2010 19:52 »

I read both Animal Farm and 1984 shortly after I left school. They never left any doubts in my head that socialism was preferable to what existed in 1980s Britain, the period in which I read them. But they did make me think about how important it was to be vigilant and to keep your critical faculties about you whatever the regime. But then again, maybe I missed Orwell's point. After all, the roots of my socialism lie in the biblical stories told me in Sunday School. I'm sure that's not what my old Sunday School teacher had intended.

 
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wolfysmith
Sr. Member

Posts: 807


« Reply #6 on: Mon 25 Jan 2010 14:19 »

Rabelais,

I read them both whilst at school in the 1960’s, like you I had know doubts that socialism was preferable to capitalism. But along with the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia they made me aware of the importance of the democratic part of a socialist system, so I don’t think you missed the point that Orwell was making. As a Marxist I am an atheist/humanist or dialectic-materialist but my parents’ socialism was rooted in Methodism and Christianity and the church we belong to when I was a child ordained black bishops for south Africa in the days of apartheid and I remember my father coming strait from work in blue overalls as a locomotive engine driver because he didn’t want to miss them being ordained. And I also remember a play in the church which depicted the Romans who arrested Christ as wearing Nazi uniforms in order to give the play a contemporary feeling, so not a bad place to form ones socialist instincts. It may not be dialectic-materialism or Marxist but I would say it’s a case of the means justifying the end rather than the end justifying the means.
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willp
Sr. Member

Posts: 504


« Reply #7 on: Mon 25 Jan 2010 15:09 »

On Spain, Arthur Landis' Spain the unfinished revolution is worth reading, as is his study of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
Some may dismiss these books (as 'Stalinist', etc.) without even bothering to read them, but then some judges hand out sentences before hearing both sides of the case.
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Jon Teunon
Sr. Member

Posts: 597


« Reply #8 on: Mon 25 Jan 2010 17:50 »

'...but then some judges hand out sentences before hearing both sides of the case.'

Before sending them to the gulag...

(And your over active imagination is at work again Will - if you think anyone has dismissed Landis or his book as being 'Stalinist' - as no one here has).
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Jon Teunon
Sr. Member

Posts: 597


« Reply #9 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 00:49 »

One thing is certain, Stalinists really detest both anarchists and libertarian socialists (like Orwell) - and in the past have treated them accordingly, as the following excerpt demonstrates:

“Eisenberg the Anarchist, from the prison memoirs of Alex Weissberg

[This account is set in Kharkov prison Kholodnaya Gora, in June 1938. The Brikhalovka is the transit cell for prisoners being taken to interrogation (and hence source of information). The ‘conveyor’ consisted of threats and abuse, sleep deprivation and being forced to maintain a single position.]

Prisoners who came back from the Brikhalovka told us a fantastic story about an anarchist named Eisenberg. The man hadn’t carried on any counter-revolutionary or anarchist activity, of course, but he had openly clung to his old ideas. He was a Jewish tailor, and when still an apprentice he had accepted the ideas of Kropotkin and Bakunin. He upheld them now with Talmudic obstinacy. They described him to us. He was a small, wiry man with burning eyes, reminiscent of an Indian fakir. There wasn’t a scrap of fat and very little lean on his body, but he was a powerful little fellow. His muscles were small and hard, but very strong. He was fifty-five but every day he did his physical exercises with great conscientiousness.

‘So you’re an anarchist, Eisenberg?’ said the examiner at their first interview.

‘That’s right, Citizen Examiner.’
The examiner was surprised. Although they all confessed to their crimes in the end they usually made some show of protesting their innocence at first.

‘You’re very wise to confess at once without making any trouble. That means you’ll get a lighter sentence. Who recruited you?’

‘Prince Peter Kropotkin, Citizen Examiner.’

‘Don’t make jokes here, man. This is a very serious matter. Who recruited you? Who brought you into the organization?’

‘ I am an individual anarchist, Citizen Examiner.’

‘Maybe you are, but I want to know all about your counter-revolutionary organization.’

‘Citizen Examiner, you seem to be new, otherwise you’d know that individual anarchists haven’t an organization. We don’t believe in it. That’s our whole point. It’s in our programme. We form a community of like-minded individuals. No one is subordinate to anyone else.’

‘Go and … your grandmother with your community of like-minded individuals,’ said the examiner irritably. ‘If you don’t tell me all about your organization at once I’ll break every bone in your body, you counter-revolutionary son of a bitch.’
Eisenberg rose and spoke slowly and solemnly:

‘Citizen Examiner, you have insulted me. For that reason I shall answer no more of your questions.’

The Citizen Examiner shrieked and raved. He punched Eisenberg in the face. He made him put his hands above his head and stand with his face to the wall, but it was no good. Not a word could he get out of his prisoner. Finally he began to temporize.

‘Eisenberg, now you’re not going to sabotage the examination, are you? That would be an anti-Soviet demonstration, and it would end very badly for you. Now be reasonable.’

Eisenberg made no answer.

‘Eisenberg, you don’t want me to call for assistance, do you? They’d beat you up so that your own mother wouldn’t know you.’ Eisenberg turned round.

‘Citizen Examiner, you may beat me up, as you say. That’s your trade. You’re a policeman, and I’m a prisoner. I was seven years in the Katorga [hard labour] under the Tsar. They beat me up too, but they didn’t insult me. I’m a human being just as you are, and I have a soul just as you have. You have no right to humiliate my personality.’
The examiner kept him standing with his face to the wall for six hours. Then Eisenberg said quietly:

‘Citizen Examiner, I’m tired now. With your permission I’ll sit down.’
And without waiting for permission he sat down on the floor. The examiner jumped up and began to punch him.

‘What! You son of a bitch, you think you can resist the Soviet power! If you don’t get up at once we’ll beat you to a jelly.’

Eisenberg took no notice and remained sitting down. The examiner then fetched two of his men. Eisenberg still made not the slightest attempt to resist. They belaboured him for an hour and it seemed to have no effect on him at all. The other prisoners who came from the Brikhalovka told strange stories about him. They declared that he was able to make himself impervious to all feeling. Finally the G.P.U. strong-arm men noticed that his eyes were quite fixed and expressionless. This we were told by one of the secretaries of the G.P.U. who was in the room at the time and who was later himself arrested and put into our cell. Then they called a doctor, who examined the prisoner and reported that his heart was perfectly sound and functioning normally but that his general physical nature was abnormal. As he really seemed to be quite impervious to pain they gave up beating him and organized a ‘Conveyor.’

This emaciated, under-sized Jewish tailor set up an all-time record in the history of the G.P.U. He survived an almost uninterrupted ‘Conveyor’ lasting for thirty-one days and thirty-one nights. I cannot understand how that was physically possible, but since then I have been less sceptical of the stories I have heard about the performances of Indian fakirs.

With deep excitement and interest the whole Brikhalovka and the whole of Kholodnaya Gora followed the battle between the all-powerful G.P.U. and this one man. The ‘Conveyor’ was interrupted twice in the twenty-four hours and Eisenberg was sent below to a cell. There he would throw off his clothes and lie down flat on the floor whilst two of his fellow prisoners rubbed him with wet towels, massaged him and stuck a cigarette in his mouth. Then he ate his meal and slept for ten minutes. After that he was called up again.

His examiner was in despair.

‘But Eisenberg,’ he pleaded, ‘why don’t you be sensible? Look, you admit the chief thing, which is being a counter-revolutionary anarchist, so why hold out so obstinately over this question of your organization? Now tell me who your fellow conspirators were, there’s a good fellow.’

‘I am an anarchist, and I always have been, but I am not a counter-revolutionary, and I never have been. I have fought and worked for the Revolution all my life. But I am an enemy of the State. I am an enemy of all States, including your State. The State and its repressive system is the cause of all social evil. When the State disappears the people will be able to breathe freely for the first time in history.’

‘Don’t be silly, Eisenberg. You can’t get on without a State. That’s logical. What would you do with criminals, for instance?’

‘Crime will disappear with the State.’
They could do nothing with him. As I see things his outlook was wrong, but he clung to it as the most important thing in life. He was the only one amongst the 12,000 of us who fought for an idea. The rest of us were just unfortunate victims of oppression. He was the one fighter against oppression.

‘Some day truth will triumph,’ he would say again and again to his cell mates. ‘Our sufferings will not be in vain.’

It was he who won the unequal struggle. He survived the record ‘Conveyor’ without confessing. After thirty-one days and nights of it he had them beaten. They broke off the examination and sent him to Moscow-it was said to a lunatic asylum.

[Note on names]

Sometimes I have been obliged to change not only names but also accompanying circumstances in order to shield people who are still within reach of the G.P.U., though I am well aware how unreliable such precautions are. World public opinion is one of the sore points of the regime, and in this respect the G.P.U., whose arm is long, spares no efforts. For this reason I have even felt myself obliged to leave out some things altogether. But although I may have altered names and places in some instances, the essentials have remained. After all, it is of no consequence that a man I call Lebedev was really Lebedinsky, that he came from Stalingrad and not from Sverdlovsk, and that he was really only thirty and not forty.

A very great deal of space is devoted to my talks with the examiners and with my fellow prisoners. In most cases I have used the direct form of speech. It may be objected that it is impossible to reconstruct a conversation accurately after the passage of ten years. But the same is true of a conversation that took place only ten days before. Thus the form of direct speech I have chosen is a matter of convenience only and I make no claim that it conveys absolute verbal accuracy.

As far as the statements of my fellow prisoners reproduced here are concerned, I was naturally not always in a position to check their accuracy. However, the atmosphere of a prison quickly teaches a man to judge the character and credibility of a fellow prisoner. Most of the experiences were typical and they were materially confirmed by constant repetition.

When all these reservations have been made I can claim with confidence that the future will confirm the objectivity of my report and the accuracy of my interpretation of what happened.

In any case, I propose to describe what happened accurately, without exaggeration and without minimization. (page 15)
from Conspiracy of Silence by Alex Weissberg (Hamish Hamilton, 1952).”

http://gulaganarchists.wordpress.com/

Orwell managed to escape the Stalinist Police that was after him in 1937 , but as Brigg points out the Trotskyist Andrés Nin, wasn't so fortunate and was tortured and killed by the NKVD. The  PCE (Communist Party of Spain claimed he was: 'En Salamanca o en Berlín' ('Either in Salamanca - under Franco's control - or Hitler's Berlin'), a clumsy attempt to both deny his murder and to 'reinforce' the unfounded accusation that the dead man had been a 'fascist'.

Which all puts Will's comment on another thread: “Which proves the adage, 'scratch an anarchist, find a fascist'.
Classic anarchist treachery.”
into context.
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willp
Sr. Member

Posts: 504


« Reply #10 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 09:19 »

If any of you experts on Spain ever get round to reading Landis' works, I would be interested to hear your opinion.
Weisberg reports that Eisenberg said that, "I am an enemy of all States, including your State. The State and its repressive system is the cause of all social evil. When the State disappears the people will be able to breathe freely for the first time in history."
Now, if we allow the truth of this second-hand reporting of what Eisenberg said, reported presumably by Eisenberg himself, what was happening in 1938?
Was Hitler preparing to attack the USSR? Yes.
Were there elements in the USSR who thought it impossible for the USSR to survive such an attack and who therefore counselled surrender to Hitler? Yes.
Anarchists who in 1938 believed that the Soviet state was the enemy, who thought that the USSR should disappear, would naturally ally with those who would make it happen ASAP.
So just as the anarchist Mera aided Franco's victory in Spain, anarchists in the USSR would try to assist Hitler's victory.
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Jon Teunon
Sr. Member

Posts: 597


« Reply #11 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 14:08 »

Will to assume that an anarchist, who is in principle against all States (by definition), is going to favour one authoritarian version over another is both perverse and misleading in the extreme! However history records who Stalin was willing to collaborate with the very next year, to the destruction of Poland:

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 24 1939.

(My response to your oversimplified comments concerning Mera is on the other thread).
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CharlieMcMenamin
Sr. Member

Posts: 689


« Reply #12 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 17:46 »

I’m sure this is likely to bring a heap of abuse down on my head from both sides, and I’m certainly not claiming to be an expert on the Spanish Civil War ( indeed I’ve forgotten most of what little I ever learned about it)  but....

It is entirely possible to believe that:


1.The fascists could only be effectively resisted by a unified and professionalised centrally controlled army – which is what, in military terms the CP was arguing for , ,and was being resisted by the other forces of the Left; and at the same time

2. Think that many of the CP's/Comintern's actions towards others on the Left were at minimum counter productive and often murderous and despicable. [/li][/list]


But it was a very bloody war on all sides: the level of cruelty unleashed in that conflict was truly horrific and it included an awful lot of utterly unjustifiable violence by all parts of the Left towards the forces of reaction as well  as the better known Fascist cruelty and the inter-Leftist murders . 

The argument on the Republican side was polarised – or has become polarised in subsequent competing histories - around the positions of ‘Win the War to Defend the Revolution’ or ‘Complete the Revolution to Win the War’.  Both positions proved inadequate. There is little point in refighting the battles of that period in exactly the same terms.


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wolfysmith
Sr. Member

Posts: 807


« Reply #13 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 18:46 »

CharlieMcM,

Like you I am no expert on the Spanish Civil War but I think you are correct that in war a unified and professionalized centrally controlled army as advocated by the CP will always be the requirement and this was the case in all the successful communist/socialist revolutionary/liberation wars and I also agree with you that the CP/Comintern actions towards the other Left groups were counter productive and murderous/despicable. But all war is bloody and cruel and you always get unjustifiable violence by all sides.  And as such arguments around the positions of ‘Win the War to Defend the Revolution’ or ‘Complete the Revolution to Win the War’ seem futile. War should always be the last resort, but having said that we know that you cannot reason with a fascist or capitalist they only understand ‘as any bully’ dose ‘equal force’ and as such sometimes a physical fight is the only option left if we chose not to be taken advantage of by those who would exploited and abused our desire for peace. This is where I would argue the need for a vanguard that can lead the socialist/labour movement in a way the libertarian socialist cannot by their very nature (that isn’t a criticism) because in a war whether it be a cold war of wills or a real physical war hard choices have to be made and that needs characters like Willy Gallacher, Hugh Scanlon, Ken Gill, Lenin, Tito, Ho Chi Minh and Castro.
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Jon Teunon
Sr. Member

Posts: 597


« Reply #14 on: Tue 26 Jan 2010 20:16 »

Charlie - not only do I respect your attempt to give a balanced and fair opinion, many members in the CNT (both anarchist and syndicalist) agreed with your point about discipline being necessary, with Cipriano Mera declaring for example:

'Our discipline must be on a par with our staunch belief in our ideas and where ideas are at stake one cannot just notch up a few hours of struggle and then go on and do whatever takes one’s fancy after that.'

Durruti too made similar points to this in many radio broadcasts at the time. This is of course not to deny that there were outbreaks of 'indisciplined' amongst anarchists etc - and I for one am not trying to make an ideological case here,not that I am an anarchist in any case! (Likewise I have made it clear that many rank and file communists were extremely brave and committed).

But many CNTers went to extraordinary lenghts to keep unity, including Garcia Oliver and Frederica Montseny joining the government' which was extremely contentious among purists anarchists to say the least! It was the latter who persuaded Durutti* to bring his column from Aragon for the defence of Madrid in the autumn of 1936. She also supported the anarchist Director General of Health and Social Assistance of the Generalitat de Catalunya, Dr. Félix Martí Ibáñez, who historians agree was very efficient and did a very good job.

This was all done while rank and file anarchists etc were receiving intense provocations from communists (arbitrary arrests, seizures of equipment and columns being disproportionately deprived of supplies at the front compared to other units). The argument amongst anarchists concerning how much the CNT leaders 'let down' the rank and file by their actions still goes on today.

However your point: 'that many of the CP's/Comintern's actions towards others on the Left were at minimum counter productive and often murderous and despicable' is not controversial, among both bourgeois and leftist historians at least.

*Antonov Ovssenko clearly had respect for Durruti, but the former like many of the Russian communist leaders who served in Spain was later 'executed' (in February 1938) by Stalin in the 'Great Purge'.
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rodge
Full Member

Posts: 142


« Reply #15 on: Wed 27 Jan 2010 09:53 »

FIFTH COLUMN...FIFTH COLUMNIST ....TERMS WHOSE ORIGINS GO BACK TO THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR. A TERM MUCH USED TO DESCRIBE THE RELATIVE EASE IN WHICH HITLERITE FORCES INVADED HOLLAND DENMARK BELGIUM AND A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER COUNTRIES.BRITAIN AND AMERICA WERE NOT IMMUNE BY THIS TIME TO FEARS OF FIFTH COLUMNISTS...WE ALL KNOW THE PLIGHT AND INJUSTICES OF JAPANESE/AMERICANS....ACTUALLY NO ..THEY WERE AMERICANS....GERMANS AND ITALIAN DESCENDANTS FARED BETTER THERE AND WERE NOT INTERNED WHOLESALE.IN UK ....JEWS OF GERMAN ORIGIN FOUND THEMSELVES INTERNED WITH NAZIS....IN SAME HUTS AND IS WELL DOCUMENTED.MY LANDLADY IN KILBURN,MARRIED TO AN ITALIAN COBBLER HAD THEIR SHOP WINDOWS SMASHED MOST NIGHTS,UNTIL A WISE OLD COPPER TOLD THEM TO PUT THE FOTOGRAPH ON THE MANTLEPIECE OF THE HUSBAND IN 1ST WORLD WAR UNIFORM IN THE SHOP WINDOW....ALONG WITH SONS WHO WERE ALSO BY THAT TIME IN THE FORCES.IT DID THE TRICK ! A JEWISH CLASSMATETOLD ME HIS DAD HAD A BUTCHERS IN HENDON...STEIN'S...BUT IT GOT BURNT DOWN IN WAR....BOMBED ? ISAID....."NO..SOMEBODY DID NOT LIKE GERMAN NAME"...I SAID BUT YOUR NAME IS STONE..HE JUST RAISED HIS EYEBROWS......AND YOU ARE CERTAINLY JEWISH ...NOT GERMAN.....DERRHHH ! WE NEVER TALKED OF IT AGAIN ...BUT I WONDERED FOR YEARS ABOUT IT . MY FATHER WAS FIGHTING JAPANESE IN THE WAR ...BURMA MALAYA..JAPANESE OFTEN USED TEENAGERS TO SPY ON HIS GROUP ....YOUNG BOYS WOULD RAISE LESS SUSPICION .HE TOLD ME THEY WERE ALL SHOT....NO MERCY WAS SHOWN...CATCH'M SHOOT'M....
WHICH TELLS ME ITS A WISE MAN WHO KNOWS WHO THE ENEMY AND WHO THE FRIEND IS IN WAR.
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Brigg57
Sr. Member

Posts: 1512


« Reply #16 on: Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:03 »

Wolfy, we’re not living in a Spanish Civil war situation at the moment.

I’m very keen on historical understanding, though I would hope that it would be deeper than merely reliving the battles of yesteryear. The Stalinist chokehold on the Spanish Republic is long gone, and very few people would now support the barbarism of the KGB and Comintern agents in torturing and murdering opponents of the Left.

If there is going to be a Civil War situation in this country, which necessitates a vanguard party, then I would recommend joining a very highly militarised party in which all individuality is subordinated to the iron will of the collective. Forget about politics, learn the religious doctrines of dialectical materialism (already becoming old hat by 1905!); the icons are probably important as inspiration (but it really doesn’t matter which – Stalin, Trotsky, Che, Ken Gill, Son of Sam) and military training activities should be organised. I know that many people would be strongly attracted to a group of this sort, though the Territorial Army and War Game groups will e competing with you.. I have met people who would be only too happy to be the KGB guy scaring everybody rigid with a lugar pistol. If any idiot who doesn’t understand political reality turns up at your meeting, asking to discuss what we really mean by the idiotic combination of neo-liberal neo-conservative, then you can easily shut him/her up by shouting out the old verities louder than ever, while one of the comrades can take the dissident aside and make sure they don’t raise their voice again to hinder the March of Progress.The comrades, come rally tra la. Oh, yes, songs are important because they enthuse and mobilise. Bang a big drum while you're at it.

The problem of course is that in a civil war situation, the militarised army/party which is able to seize and hold power will turn us all into a barracks. There’s a difference between military action, sometimes as in Spain in 1936 necessary, and political action to create a socialist society based on voluntary cooperation. I fact, the two forces can be deadly enemies.
But is the CPB (whatever) really such an organisation? You strike me as someone who’s done quite well out of his job, too comfortably off, maybe too aged for military games. Isn’t that an indication that in advanced capitalist countries, a civil war may not be on the cared (nobody cna rule anything out). A Left govt is more likely to receive a financial assault, yet your party has no tactics to handle such an event. It’s not as if it’s unexpected – capitalists don’t usually sit inactive with their money when the Left is in power.

Shouting you’re a vanguard, and thn reeling off your little group’s policies and influence, doesn’t make you a vanguard party.

I think a political rethinking isin order. The fate of the Left Party in Germany, which is looking dodgy, shows that.
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willp
Sr. Member

Posts: 504


« Reply #17 on: Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:52 »

Jon, the point is that Eisenberg's efforts (however small) to overthrow the Soviet state tended to weaken that state in the face of the enormous onrushing Nazi invasion.
So I would like to thank Jon for proffering evidence that supports my point.
This story also shows how torture is both vile and useless – a lesson that the Cubans have learnt, but, unfortunately, the British state has not learnt, with its record of systematic torture in its colonial wars from Kenya to northern Ireland, nor has Britain’s ally the US state (see Philippe Sands’ book on Torture).
To condemn its use in the USSR 70 years ago without focusing on opposing its use now, by 'our' state, the British state, and its allies, would be the grossest hypocrisy. We prove our opposition to torture not by writing hot words about events before we were born, but by our present actions, where we could make a difference.
Clearly, we will need a new thread on the Pact of Non-Aggression of 1939.
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wolfysmith
Sr. Member

Posts: 807


« Reply #18 on: Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:18 »

Brigg, Its very true that we are not in a civil war situation or likely to be this is the very reason that the CPB sees the British road to socialism best pursued via the labour movement with the unions engaged in the economic struggle and with the Labour Party (for the present) as the political wing of the mass movement. But as you say if/when we do manage to get a Left-Wing government elected (not this time round) it will face opposition from the institutions of international finance capital and the government would/will need a strategy for counteracting this assault both economically and politically. This is obviously the ideal scenario with the least harm for society and building a democratic socialist society. I don’t think this is necessarily what will happen and would say that the 20th century shows there are no guaranties that society in a developed capitalist state cannot degenerate into a civil war situation. This will depend on how extreme the measures that the capitalist class will take in order to protect their political and economic position and how far they chose to attach the economic and political position of the working class. The 1980’s show how far they were papered to go when the miners went on strike to protect their livelihoods and communities and whilst the state has the law and the armed forces history also shows that a point is eventually reached when social forces build up against an intolerable and unjust system. At the moment the capitalist class still feels it is in a position to attach the lower and middle classes without facing any serious social backlash, but I would argue that we are reaching a point when this will no longer be the case. What happens then there are no guaranties and I sincerely hope the left can put the democratic British road to socialism back on track before we reach the point when the option becomes between an authoritarian fascist state and a civil war/socialist revolution. We will have to see how far the Tories and Liberal-Democrats are prepared to go with their assault on living standards and the welfare state which forms the social-democratic consensus that was the foundation of British welfare capitalism in the 20th century. My guess is they will push it back until society breaks down because unlike the conservatives who formed the Macmillan government in the 1950’s they do not understand the social forces that real poverty produce and when people become as desperate as they did in the 1920’ and 1930’s our advanced capitalist state will see the same choices between socialism and fascism that existed then, socialisms best recruiting sergeant is a fascist and conservative government that follows neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism in its purist form and my guess is a Cameron or Cameron/Clegg government will go for it because they will follow the Thatcherite ideology to its logical conclusion.
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wolfysmith
Sr. Member

Posts: 807


« Reply #19 on: Wed 27 Jan 2010 19:08 »

Undercover Of The Night taken from the DVD Live In Toronto

http://www.nme.com/awards/video/id/k7udWfQt0c8

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