Should the left give up on Labour?

[Sacco]

Should the left give up on Labour?
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article473.html

Read the articles in the October/November issue of Red Pepper and on the website, vote in our poll and join the discussion here.

The influence of the left in the Labour Party has been diminishing for more than two decades, culminating in its failure even to stand a candidate against Gordon Brown in the 2007 leadership election. So what is the future for the left in the party?

In 'What became of the Labour left?' Alex Nunns inquires into whether there is still life in the Labour left. And in 'Why stay?' former Labour national executive member Liz Davies opens our debate by asking why anyone on the left stays in the party.

Further contributions are to follow from Jon Cruddas, Neal Lawson, Clare Short, Lord Chris Smith, Jon Trickett, Seumas Milne, Mark Fisher and others. Join the debate

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article473.html

[Alex Hebden]

Should the left give up on Labour?
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article473.html

In 'What became of the Labour left?' Alex Nunns inquires into whether there is still life in the Labour left. And in 'Why stay?' former Labour national executive member Liz Davies opens our debate by asking why anyone on the left stays in the party

Sadly, I have to agree with Liz Davies, there is no place for the left in Labour and never likely to be again. PR is the only way forward on this.

[Paranoid Eyes]

No, left has to stay, we haven't exactly shown much success at creating an alternative party, it's time to dig in and speak out not run away.

[Millymolly]

In the words of John McDonnell, if Brown "forces his proposals through, could the last Labour party delegate leaving the Bournemouth conference hall turn off the lights please, they will be the lights of democracy".

[Editor]

In his new blog for Red Pepper, 'Plattitudes', Steve Platt republishes his explanation for leaving the Labour Party in 2002:

http://blog.redpepper.org.uk/plattitudes/2007/09/24/should-the-left-give-up-on-labour

[Free Radical]

The problem is really that if you do give up on Labour what else do you do? Of course there is trade union work, important single issue campaigns and other worthwhile activity. But in terms of politics and an engagement with political power it is hard to ignore the Labour Party. And if you leave how easily can you influence politics and policy?
Despite the further undermining of Labour Party democracy at the Conference these are the reasons I personally remain:
1. Why should I abandon the party to "New Labour"?
2. Labour is the only mass party linked to organised labour
3. I feel I can achieve more, and influence more people both inside and outside the party, by remaining in the party.
4. I can not see an alternative political party that reflects my socialist and leanings and that is a viable party
If, for example, as I heard Tony Benn point out, you want troops withdrawn from the Iraq or Afghanistan, you will need to shift the parliamentary Labour Party - whether you are in the party or not.

In terms of the articles by Liz and Alex - this is a useful debate but, in terms of the non-leadership election, the left was clearly very weak indeed in parliament. Furthermore, John McDonnell might have run an exemplarly campaign, but was he a very credible or strong candidate? Personally I think not. More to the point his tactics split the already weak Campaign Group. So in this case the left in parliament were weak and fatally divided. Cruddas' vote, to my mind, showed the strength of feeling in the grassroots against Blairism, despite what appeared to me and many others as a rather centrist and somewhat opportunistic campaign - Cruddas' parliamentary voting record was of course lamentable.

Perhaps the most serious underlying issue is that the party seems to be ageing rapidly. Without an influx of new blood, and especially young people the party perhaps risks becoming the new conservative party. The Labour Party and ordinary party members, really need to give very serious attention to building a youth section, which of course the leadership are unwilling to do because they fear, rightly, that it would be politically radical.

[Sacco]

The issue of an ageing membership is an important one. A friend who is down in Bournemouth for the conference tells me that when she first attending a Labour meeting she was the youngest person there, aged 17. She went to a fringe meeting yesterday and 30 years later she still is ...

[Natty]

Labour gave up on the left yonks ago but it's still the only party in town

[bazza]

Won't the very nature of the question change if there is a hung parliament?

[LabourSocialist]

This debate is something that has been going on for years now and yet there is still no workable solution to life outside of Labour. I myself have been there and in essence have done the opposite of what has been proposed, I joined the Party after 5 years in the political wilderness. After being a member of the Socialist Party (formerly Militant Tendency) for a number of years and involved with the Left outside of Labour, I decided that on its own it wasn’t strong enough or united enough to make a significant impact on the landscape of British politics.
The campaigns they were good at should be the natural home of the Labour Party: anti-cuts, anti-war and anti-privatisation.
There is no reason, as far as I can see, that Labour members should not reach out to those of the Left outside their Party and work together on issues of common interest. The anti-war movement was a good example of this happening.

With regards to internal influence, the more people that exit the harder it becomes to achieve anything. Don’t lose faith, where there’s a will there’s a way. It may involve different tactics than voting down motions or forwarding proposals, but things can be done. As socialists or radicals or whatever we wish to call ourselves, we seem to have forgotten that if the rules of the game change we must change with it.
If we cannot vote on contemporary policy at conference then we find other ways of making our voice heard. Petitions, demonstrations, lobbying, writing campaigns; these are but a few methods you can make your voice heard again.
Do not be intimidated, do not be afraid, this is your Party and it is time to reclaim it.
We must not hand over our Party to a bunch of careerist, pro-boss anti-democratic elitists.

[rob9443]

Without proportional representation we're stuck with either Labour or the Liberal Democrats.

[Martin Wicks]

We can waste too much energy on this discussion. If people want to stay that's up to them. More importantly we should try to create the conditions for the left inside and outside the Party to work together in bnuilding resistence to the government's neo-liberal programme. This requires a struggle within the unions against the 'obsequious squad' ( http://martinwicks.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/63/ ) of trade union leaders who gave away their right to challenge the government and 'emabarrass' it by defeating it in debate in the conference.

Their fawning at Brown was a disgusting spectacle even by the standards of trade union leaders.

[Editor]

Clare Short has now contributed to the discussion. You can read her article at:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article521.html

[Paul]

On balance, the Left would be misguided to give up on the Labour Party. But the Left really does have to decide what it stands for and how it is going to move the centre ground in the Labour Party and in society generally to the Left and away from the neo-liberal consensus. This is not a problem in Britain alone. It is a problem in all societies and for all social democratic and reformist socialist parties. The debate hosted by Redpepper has its reflection internationally. So what about the internationalist dimension?
Beware of Greeks bearing Antonio Gramsci. He was a good revolutionary socialist. But he has an appeal to neo-liberal reformists because of a perceived concentration on civil society to the exclusion of the state, it's power, institutions and class base. It is a false dichotomy, but is useful to some of the purportedly 'liberal Left'.

[Dugsie]

The problem is Paul that the Labour Party has given up on the Left. I don't see any way of making our influence felt. We are not in a coalition but a prison. How long before we start to look seriously at an alternative ?

[Maria]

How can anyone with left leanings join the current Labour Party and sign up to a party that supports millitarism, privatisation and the rip off of ordinary workers?

[Free Radical]

In answer to Maria's question

How can anyone with left leanings join the current Labour Party and sign up to a party that supports millitarism, privatisation and the rip off of ordinary workers?

It's a very good question and I have every sympathy with your position. And yet, there are many good people in the Labour Party who oppose militarism, privatisation and the rip off of workers. If around 200,000 people have left the Labour Party since 1997 for reasons I well understand, have they made the situation any better, or perhaps worse?

Not only do we need to try and rebuild the "left" in the party but, as others have observed, we also need to forge links between the left inside and outside of the party.

[Editor]

In the latest contribution to our discussion, Mark Perryman writes on the importance of Respect and the prospects for a new pluralist politics to the left of Labour:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article522.html

[rob9443]

I believe this could be the answer.

http://www.thecep.org.uk/

Reason being that an English Parliament would presumably be elected by some form of proportional representation, both because the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly already are and because Labour wouldn't dare allow one to exist with first past the post since it would likely be dominated by the Tories. It's a disturbing fact that had the 2005 election been held in England alone Michael Howard would now be in No. 10.

As things stand England has a grievance. There is no answer to the infamous West Lothian question - why should MPs in Scottish constituencies vote on English affairs when the legislation doesn't affect Scotland?  I'm amazed the Tories haven't made more of this but sooner or later they will.

The left should get behind the campaign for an English Parliament before the right does. Admittedly the version of PR that exists in Scotland involves party lists which is far from ideal, but it would still give a Green Left party a real chance. As things stand socialists outside the Labour Party are wasting their time when it comes to standing for election.

[Paul]

It is almost impossible to disagree with what Maria and Dugsie say. The contribution to the debate by Alan Simpson is salutary. In some ways more shocking than the successful efforts by 'new labour' and its allies to ensure that LP members did not elect the Leader of our Party, is the fact that reformist socialists of principle like Lynne Jones and Alan Simpson have given up on the PLP and by inference have given up on the Labour Party. In recent years Tony Benn may have been lauded more than he deserved. But how he squares his professed reformist socialist principles and ethics with supporting Hilary Benn, (a committed neo-liberal,) for the Deputy Leadership defies reason. Why reformist socialists succumbed to Benn senior's blandishments and signed his boy's nomination papers is scarcely explicable in socialist, democratic terms.
But these phenomena are as graphically illustrative of rightward momentum as anything advanced by Blair or Brown.
On the face of it reformist socialism and the progressive end of social democracy have been defeated in the Labour Party and society. The centre ground having been pushed well to the Right and based on the neo-liberal consensus. Within the consensus Compass seeks a role for itself as neo-liberal reformist pressure group. But within the Labour Party, remain socialists still remain. There is the LRC. There are also other socialists and progressives in the LP, - not excluding rank and file Compass members who are genuinely social democrats.
Mark Perryman's contribution to the re-making of a new politics to the Left of Labour should be considered very seriously, if he means by it to the Left of the 'new labour' faction, rather than in opposition to the Labour Party.
Meanwhile, Labour Party socialists and social democrats are in a ludicrous position. We must campaign for the return of Labour under its 'new labour' tutelage. At the same time, we must hope for the necessity of a coalition with the Lib Dems as a short term expedient to ensuring that attacks on the poor and on civil rights will end; and that the tax burden on low and middle income core labour voters will be eased. The alternative is not just the Tories, it is un unfettered, patriotically Brown led  neo-liberal Government.